Posts by Sea Breeze

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

Charles Kelly talked on the subject of Salvation at a recent XJW conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6t2NybZJ48&t=2s

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

If someone kidnaps someone's child and the parent pays the ransom they are supposed to get their kid back yet Jesus paid the ultimate price with his death and nothing has changed for the human race.

If all we are is physical, then you have a point. The problem is that modern thinking is infected with Naturalistic Materialism. However, most cultures especially prior to the 20th century believed (as the bible teaches) that man also has an immaterial consciousness (soul).

There are many scriptures that describe salvation for a believing Christian in all three tenses - past present and future.

Here's how it works. The moment a person surrenders to Christ:

1. They receive a new spirit which cannot sin. (They have been saved) They are Justified. Sinless people get to interact with God. God personally interacts with the believer in their new spirit because righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness,and light no communion with darkness. The salvation of a persons spirit is immediate. It is a "downpayment" (earnest) on the full restoration to come.

2. Through Sanctification (being set apart) they "prove to themselves what is that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God". (They are being saved). This corresponds to the soul or mind and is an experiential process where the believer gets to know God and his ways over time.

3. When the redeemed are finally resurrected, they are reunited with bodies in Glorification. So, they will be saved.

So, each part of man is saved at different times for the believer. Each part of man is characterized as personhood in the bible... spirit, soul, & body... saved in that order. However, if a person is stuck in a materialism worldview, which the WT partially promotes, salvation will not appear as anything spectacular from this unbiblical worldview.

29

Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K

by Sea Breeze in

what were we thinking?

mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.

Sea Breeze

What were we thinking?

Mat_10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat_16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat_18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luk 6:47,48 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock

Luk_9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh_4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Joh_4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh_12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom. 8:9 ... if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

18

A problem, a provision, a promise

by JW Answers in

short message of help showing forth the correct gospel for today.. the problem with mankind, the provision for mankind, and a promise to mankind.. jws teach that works save.

the bible says that only christ saves if we believe / trust upon him..

Sea Breeze

Are you an atheist Cofty?

18

A problem, a provision, a promise

by JW Answers in

short message of help showing forth the correct gospel for today.. the problem with mankind, the provision for mankind, and a promise to mankind.. jws teach that works save.

the bible says that only christ saves if we believe / trust upon him..

Sea Breeze

There was no agreed cannon for centuries after the life of Jesus.

Cofty, with all due respect, this is simply not true.

The apostles reviewed the writings of each other and approved them collectively as authoratative; meaning that they agreed that the writings were not a matter of private interpretation, but bore the stamp of writings that were "moved by the Holy Spirit" or in other words, spoken from God. (2 Peter 1: 20-21)

The process becomes clear when we read 2 Pet. 3:15-16 and discover that the Apostle Peter gave approval to Paul’s writings. We also discover that Paul endorsed Luke in 1 Tim 5:17-18 when he quoted Luke 10:7. It is clear from Luke 1:1-4; Col. 4:16 and 1 Thess 5:27 that the writings of the apostles were distributed and read by the various churches.

In short, the New Testament books were approved by the apostles and were complete by the end of the first century.

By the end of the second century, church leaders (fathers) had quoted from ALL of the New Testament books.

The reason that the early church leaders quoted so much scripture in writing to each other was because like today, there were many "antichrists" in the world distorting facts. These writings make it fairly easy to determine what was sound doctrine, who were the trouble makers, and the authoratative scriptures that were used to refute their lies. It is not rocket science.

Additionally, the Muratorian Fragment (A.D. 150-170) listed all the New Testament books, except for Matthew, Mark, Hebrews, James, 1-2 Peter and 3 John. The document is called a fragment because portions of the document have been torn off. The well known biblical scholar Westcott states that the missing books were probably included initially because the document is torn where they should have been listed.

How is it possible for you to consistently get your facts so wrong? Are you an atheist?

18

A problem, a provision, a promise

by JW Answers in

short message of help showing forth the correct gospel for today.. the problem with mankind, the provision for mankind, and a promise to mankind.. jws teach that works save.

the bible says that only christ saves if we believe / trust upon him..

Sea Breeze

I didn't suggest ignoring any passages in the bible.

Cofty,

Thanks for clearing that up. Because it looked like you are reccommending that people ignore scriptures penned by Paul when you said "without the lens of Pauline theology."

Like I said previously:

The message today is to be reconciled to God and accept his New Blood Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" that Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28.

Why would Jesus offer this if a person could work their way into God's favor? It makes no sense.

18

A problem, a provision, a promise

by JW Answers in

short message of help showing forth the correct gospel for today.. the problem with mankind, the provision for mankind, and a promise to mankind.. jws teach that works save.

the bible says that only christ saves if we believe / trust upon him..

Sea Breeze

Read the synoptic gospels and let them speak for themselves without the lens of Pauline theology.

Cofty,

Why would anyone seeking truth want to eliminate some scriptures and not others? That doesn't make any sense. Scripture says that all of it is inspired. All of it is "beneficial". The other apostles were just fine with Paul's message. In Galatians, after preaching to the Gentiles for 14 years, Paul went back to Jerusalem to see if his efforts were in vain. The other apostels "added noting to me" and "extended the right hand of fellowship".

Sea Breeze - If christians are removed before the GT how can the sheep be saved on the basis of their actions towards them?

I didn't say that. Christians are evacuated before the GT. New Christians are created during the reign of terror of the AntiChrist but are also killed by the AntiChrist during the GT. These Christians are not Jesus' "brothers" that he is referring to.

Christ's brothers (Israel) are protected during the entire conflict. The Jews still have a national contract in force that guarantees the survival of the nation as a whole. God promised a certain land to the seed of Abraham, saying that it would be theirs “forever” (Gen. 13:15). I believe he meant what he said without any need to reinterpret what he said.

"All Israel will be Saved"

Both groups (sheep and goats) seem confused as to why they received the judgment that they did. Both groups question when they did or did not do certain things to Jesus. Jesus explains that what they did to Israel was the same as doing it to him.

God hasn't changed his original promise to Abraham in Genesis: I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you.

During this time, those who blessed Israel, are blessed themselves by being allowed into the Kingdom Reign on earth.

But, all this is a future time. The message today is to be reconciled to God and accept his New Blood Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" that Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28.

Why would Jesus offer this if a person could work their way into God's favor? It makes no sense.

"by the works of the Law shall no flesh be Justified" - Gal. 2: 16

18

A problem, a provision, a promise

by JW Answers in

short message of help showing forth the correct gospel for today.. the problem with mankind, the provision for mankind, and a promise to mankind.. jws teach that works save.

the bible says that only christ saves if we believe / trust upon him..

Sea Breeze

The sheep and the goats judgment occurs after the age of grace has ended.

The Sheep and Goat Judgment

Works flow from our beliefs, not the other way around. Tribulation saints are saved because of their attitude and works toward the object of the Anti-Chirsts hatred during the GT - literal Jews (Christs' Brothers). They do this because they believe God.

It wouldn't be right to let people in who wanted the Jews dead since Isreal will be the lead country on planet earth during the millinium reign, with Jeus sitting on the throne .... a throne that no one has sat on since Zedekiah was dethroned and carted off to Babylon over 2500 years ago. It will shortly be occupied again by earth's new owner, the 2nd Adam.

This is really just a military mop-up operation after the Great Tribulation has ended. It separates the believers still on earth from the unbelievers still on earth that need to be removed.

Man has always been saved by faith in every dispensation.

Genesis 15:6

Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Ephesians 2:9

“Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

29

Police confirm homicide at Jehovah’s witness center in Colorado after shooter 'threw Molotov cocktail into building'

by TakeOffTheCrown in

jw
friends

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11573103/active-shooter-throws-molotov-cocktail-jehovahs-witness-center-colorado.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top.

.

Sea Breeze

The elders are no doubt forming a committee as we speak to deal with the serious sin of bringing reproach upon the organization.

"A few years ago an elder committed adultery with a spiritual sister who had an unbelieving husband. On the evening that the disfellowshipping of the former elder was announced, the infuriated husband strode into the Kingdom Hall with a shotgun and fired shots at the two guilty individuals. Neither of them was killed, but the next day this was front-page news in the largest newspaper in the United States! Truly, wrongdoing brings reproach.—Proverbs 6:32."

- w88 3/15 p. 16-17

98

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

by Blotty in

i have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.

(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.

galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.

Sea Breeze

you ruled out any other potential (natural or supernatural) explanations.

Jeffro, with all due respect I haven't "ruled out any explanations". You have not provided any serious natural explanations have you? I'm still waiting for an opinion from you.

Please explain these facts from a material naturalistic view:

1. The case of Anna in the video I posted on page 2 of this thread

2. Cases of NDE's wjere people see things while out of their body later verified to be accurate

3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death

Couldn't your worldview provide even a stab in the dark at these facts which are from credible sources? These facts are not going away no matter how much you pretend they are superstitions. This is why I asked if your were an atheist/materialist/naturalism/ adherent, because that changes everything.

I believe that the reason that you cannot even decide if the above simple facts are a better fit in a materialist worldview or a biblical worldview is BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. Simply put, you don't have permission to do so.

For the atheist, it isn't about the evidence at all is it? As atheist Professor Richard Lewontin says:

1. we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

2. we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive

3. materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

These are the shackles of your worldview. Notice the use of the word "forced". These are all assumptions and self-imposed restrictive rules. You have no way of knowing if they are true or useful or not, you just assume they are. Then, you criticize others if they haven't adopted your assumptions/religion. I use the word religion becuase I believe that is exactly what it is. It requires way more faith than other worldviews in my opinion.

Aside from the amount of faith that you must generate, your worldview inherently breaks the Law of Non Contradiction. Something cannot be both true and not true. Everything is ether all physical or not. It cannot be both.

You never answered my question on how you know if your reasoning is true or not? If we are a random sack of chemicals and copying mistakes as atheists claim, what basis is there to assume that your reasoning is sound?

If your assumptions are just ideas, and they are, then they are not physical are they? Why rely on anything non-physical if that is your desire?

The fact that you attempt to form an argument is a non-material process that you ironically use in an attempt to generate ONLY materialist causes. You assume your strategy, something immeterial as well is useful and thus... real.

The computer you are using in an attempt to support a materialist worldview requires the tremendous use of codes. Codes are not material are they? If I give you a memory stick full of information, it weighes exactly the same as an empty memory stick doesn't it? It has no mass. Yet it is very real.

But, you rely on them to support the idea that only material things exist. Ironic isn't it?

Math isn't physical, haphazard, or situational. You assume 2 + 2 = 4 on earth. Why wouldn't it be something else in a different place if everything is just a product of unguided explosions and random chemical reactions? Who wrote the rules of math & logic? No one you say? So, do you have any examples of math and logic arising from rocks and chemical reactions?

I say your that your worldview is based on arbitrary and inconsistent assumptions. You assume that these non physical things are reliable and true, even while you use them to argue against other non-physical possibilities. Very inconsistent. It supports the biblical view that atheists don't exist and that everyone knows in their heart of hearts that God is obviouslyt real. Furthermore, the bbile declares that people who say to themselves "there is no God" are "without excse".

Christians don't have these inconsistencies. We believe that the source of all things, material and non material originate in the mind of God.

Billions are geting ready to celebrate his birthday in a day or two. His name is Jesus. He loves you and desires an imtimate relationship with you. Isn't there room in your heart for you to accept just one more non material thing?

Merry Christmas Jeffro.